Crash improvviso di Rhino (prima dell'apertura)

Chloe · 24 Agosto 2023, 2:38pm

Buongiorno, utilizzo Rhino 7 da quando è uscito e non mi ha mai dato problemi, fino a un paio di mesi fa. Quando lo apro infatti il programma si chiude senza effettivamente aver aperto neanche l’interfaccia iniziale con i progetti più recenti. Questo accade anche aprendo progetti già fatti. Riesco ad aprire il programma solo dal terminale scrivendo “sudo” + il file che si trova dentro la cartella “macOS” in “contents” (soluzione trovata su internet qualche tempo fa).

Specifico che ho disinstallato e reinstallato il programma più volte e che questo problema è comparso dal nulla dopo mesi che ho usato Rhino tutti i giorni senza problemi.

Grazie a chiunque possa darmi una mano!

RiccardoMajewski · 24 Agosto 2023, 4:44pm

Lancia il comando _SystemInfo e incolla il risultato qua.

Sarebbe stato più facile triangolare il problema vicino al periodo quando ha iniziato a darti problemi…
Hai installato plug-in?
La macchina è aggiornata?

Ti ricordi se i crash sono iniziati dopo un aggiornamento di rhino?

Chloe · 24 Agosto 2023, 5:10pm

Ho installato Sunglasses per Grasshopper e il plug-in che permette il collegamento con Twinmotion. Ho provato a disinstallarli ma non è cambiata la situazione.
Ho fatto tutti gli aggiornamenti (pensando fosse il problema) ma non si è risolto. I crash non sono iniziati dopo un aggiornamento e non ce n’era uno disponibile al momento.

Lanciando il comando _SystemInfo:

Rhino 7 SR32 2023-8-9 (Rhino 7, 7.32.23221.10242, Git hash:master @ 3d9c816c4cd57561d12d8f53246bce304f314ba2)
License type: Educational Lab License, build 2023-08-09
License details: Cloud Zoo
Expires on: 4653047-08-29

Apple macOS Version 13.2.1 (Build 22D68) (Physical RAM: 8Gb)
Rhino is running in Rosetta2 on Apple Silicon
Mac Model Identifier: MacBookPro17,1
Language: en

Apple M1 (OpenGL ver:4.1 Metal - 83)

OpenGL Settings
Safe mode: Off
Use accelerated hardware modes: On
Redraw scene when viewports are exposed: On

Anti-alias mode: 4x
Mip Map Filtering: Linear
Anisotropic Filtering Mode: High

Vendor Name: Apple
Render version: 4.1
Shading Language: 4.10
Maximum Texture size: 16384 x 16384
Z-Buffer depth: n/a
Maximum Viewport size: 16384 x 16384
Total Video Memory: 5461 MB
Graphics: Apple M1
Displays: Unknown (255dpi 2x)

Graphics processors
Apple M1
Color LCD (1440 x 900 @ 60.00Hz)

USB devices
None

Bluetooth devices
None

Third party kernel extensions
None

Third party plugins
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCore.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreFoundation.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftDarwin.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftDispatch.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftIOKit.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftObjectiveC.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftXPC.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswift_Concurrency.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswift_StringProcessing.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftos.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswift_RegexParser.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftOSLog.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftAVFoundation.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreAudio.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreLocation.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreMIDI.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreMedia.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftMetal.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftQuartzCore.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftUniformTypeIdentifiers.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftsimd.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftNetwork.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCryptoTokenKit.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreGraphics.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCompression.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftFileProvider.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftIntents.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftPrivate_BiomePubSub.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftPrivate_BiomeStreams.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libIex.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libHalf.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libAlembic.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libusd_ms.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libosdCPU.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libImath.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libIlmThread.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libIexMath.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libtbb.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libMaterialXCore.dylib
/usr/lib/usd/libMaterialXFormat.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftAppKit.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreImage.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftExtensionFoundation.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftAccelerate.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftCoreML.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftVision.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftDemangle.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftSystem.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftExtensionKit.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftRegexBuilder.dylib
/usr/lib/swift/libswiftWebKit.dylib
/private/var/root/Library/Application Support/McNeel/Rhinoceros/MacPlugIns/DatasmithRhino7.rhp/DatasmithFacadeCSharp.dylib
/private/var/root/Library/Application Support/McNeel/Rhinoceros/MacPlugIns/DatasmithRhino7.rhp/libtbb.dylib
/private/var/root/Library/Application Support/McNeel/Rhinoceros/MacPlugIns/DatasmithRhino7.rhp/libtbbmalloc.dylib
/usr/lib/log/liblog_network.dylib

Rhino plugins that do not ship with Rhino
/var/root/Library/Application Support/McNeel/Rhinoceros/MacPlugIns/DatasmithRhino7.rhp “Datasmith Exporter” 5.2.0.0

Rhino plugins that ship with Rhino
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_FBX.rhp “Export_FBX” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/PanelingTools.rhp “PanelingTools” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_UDO.rhp “Moray Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_STEP.rhp “STEP Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/RhinoBonusTools.rhp “Rhino Bonus Tools” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/MeshTools.rhp “MeshTools” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_X.rhp “X Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/RhinoLabsTools.rhp “Rhino Labs Tools” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_LWO.rhp “Lightwave Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_PDF.rhp “PDFReader” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/export_SVG.rhp “Export SVG” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/CreaseAngle.rhp “CreaseAngle” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_SLC.rhp “SLC Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_STEP.rhp “STEP Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_VDA.rhp “VDA Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_Points.rhp “Points Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_XGL.rhp “XGL Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_SolidWorks.rhp “Solidworks Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_WAMIT.rhp “WAMIT import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/MeshFromPoints.rhp “MeshFromPoints” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_3MF.rhp “import_3MF” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/export_PDF.rhp “PDF Export” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/GrasshopperPlugin.rhp “Grasshopper” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_IGES.rhp “IGES Import Plug-in” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_SKP.rhp “SketchUp Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_CSV.rhp “Comma Separated Value Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/AnimationTools.rhp “AnimationTools” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/import_DST.rhp “Import_DST” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_SAT.rhp “ACIS Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_RIB.rhp “Renderman Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/BlockEdit.rhp “BlockEdit” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_VDA.rhp “VDA Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_RAW.rhp “RAW Triangle Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Displacement.rhp “Displacement” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_CD.rhp “Cult3D Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_STL.rhp “STL Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_RAW.rhp “Raw Triangles Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_X.rhp “X Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_LWO.rhp “Lightwave Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_WAMIT.rhp “WAMIT Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_Points.rhp “Points Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Export_DAE.rhp “Export_DAE” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/NamedPositions.rhp “Named Position” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/MeshCommands.rhp “MeshCommands” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_GTS.rhp “GTS Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhMaterialEditor.framework “Renderer Development Kit” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/export_PLY.rhp “PLY - Polygon File Format Export” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/export_IGES.rhp “IGES Export Plug-in” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_POV.rhp “POV-Ray Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/SolidTools.rhp “SolidTools” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Export_AMF.rhp “Export_AMF” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/MPlane.rhp “MPlane” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_AI.rhp “Adobe Illustrator Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Import_OBJ.rhp “Import_OBJ” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_M.rhp “Import_M” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Squish.rhp “Squish” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/RhinoDLR_Python.rhp “IronPython” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Import_AMF.rhp “Import_AMF” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_OFF.rhp “OFF Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_SLC.rhp “SLC Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/NamedSnapshots.rhp “Snapshots” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_VRML.rhp “VRML/X3D Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_3DS.rhp “3D Studio Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_ACAD.rhp “AutoCAD file import: import_ACAD” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_STL.rhp “STL Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_3MF.rhp “export_3MF” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Commands.rhp “Commands” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_SKP.rhp “SketchUp Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Import_SVG.rhp “Import_SVG” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/Export_OBJ.rhp “export_OBJ” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_VRML.rhp “VRML Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/RhinoRenderCycles.rhp “Rhino Render” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_FBX.rhp “Import_FBX” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Export_X_T.rhp “Parasolid Export” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/QuadRemesh.rhp “QuadRemesh” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/RDK_EtoUI.rhp “RDK_EtoUI” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/export_ACAD.rhp “AutoCAD file export : export_ACAD” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/Import_GTS.rhp “GTS Triangle Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/export_XAML.rhp “export_xaml” 7.32.23221.10242
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/import_PLY.rhp “PLY - Polygon File Format Import” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/PlugIns/RhinoRender.rhp “Legacy Rhino Render” 7.32.23221.1002
/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/Frameworks/RhCore.framework/Resources/ManagedPlugIns/RhinoCycles.rhp “RhinoCycles” 7.32.23221.10242

RiccardoMajewski · 25 Agosto 2023, 6:09am

Hai provato a disabilitare questo plugin?

lucio_zadra · 25 Agosto 2023, 7:13am

Oltre a quanto detto da Riccardo, hai provato ad aprire Rhino in safe mode?
Giusto per verificare che il problema sia legato ai plugins (non ho rhino mac, qui su windows abbiamo due collegamenti nei programmi Rhino, uno che avvia normalmente e uno in safe mode).
Il comando SUDO prima dell’eseguibile (metodo che stai utilizzando da riga di comando) dice al sistema operativo di eseguire il programma con privilegi di amministratore (su Linux ti viene chiesta anche la password per proseguire, non so se sia lo stesso su mac) quindi sembra che il crash sia dovuto a qualche richiesta di accesso a cartelle di sistema o all’esecuzione di programmi non considerati “sicuri” (che non vuol dire che siano virus, semplicemente il SO non ha certificati che gli dicano che il programma sia sicuro e quindi lo termina prima che possa fare qualche operazione pericolosa).

Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 7:50am

Sì ho riprovato anche proprio adesso (l’ho eliminato del tutto) ma non cambia la situazione

Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 7:51am

Come posso fare per aprirlo in safe mode?

RiccardoMajewski · 25 Agosto 2023, 9:13am

Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 10:09am

Grazie. Ho aperto Rhino in modalità sicura ma non cambia nulla, si chiude da solo prima della prima schermata.

RiccardoMajewski · 25 Agosto 2023, 10:21am

Prova a dare una letta a questo thread:

forse qualche cartella che Rhino accede dovrebbe essere posseduta (“owner”) dall’user e invece per qualche motivo è posseduta dal sistema…?

Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 10:45am

Ho letto e ho fatto tutti i passaggi descritti ma non cambia la situazione. In effetti anche l’errore in sé è un errore diverso… non mi appare neanche la schermata “data protection failed” all’apertura di Rhino che compare a lui…

Queste sono le schermate che mi appaiono una di seguito all’altra. Ovviamente ho provato svariate volte a scrivere la segnalazione sperando di ricevere risposta ma così non è stato.

RiccardoMajewski · 25 Agosto 2023, 10:50am

@giuseppe , qualche idea?

Chloe, nel mentre ti suggerirei di aprire un post nel forum inglese.
Copia sia il risultato di _SystemInfo che il testo contenuto in quel riquadro ^ …

Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 1:05pm

Va bene grazie!

lucio_zadra · 25 Agosto 2023, 3:44pm

Riusciresti a copiare il testo della finestra “problema ed informazioni di sistema” (l’ultima finestra appena prima del pulsante invia file) ed incollarlo qui?
Forse si riesce a capire quale file o cartella genera l’errore.

Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 5:03pm

Certo (devo dividere il testo in varie parti perché è troppo lungo):

{“app_name”:“Rhinoceros”,“timestamp”:“2023-08-25 18:58:41.00 +0200”,“app_version”:“7.32”,“slice_uuid”:“80bd4f71-905a-3eac-bb7e-14c398bbe0f7”,“build_version”:“7.32.23221.10242”,“platform”:1,“bundleID”:“com.mcneel.rhinoceros.7”,“share_with_app_devs”:0,“is_first_party”:0,“bug_type”:“309”,“os_version”:“macOS 13.2.1 (22D68)”,“roots_installed”:0,“name”:“Rhinoceros”,“incident_id”:“E0E615ED-69A2-48EB-9E0F-E7032F2EA054”}
{
“uptime” : 11000,
“procRole” : “Foreground”,
“version” : 2,
“userID” : 501,
“deployVersion” : 210,
“modelCode” : “MacBookPro17,1”,
“coalitionID” : 1454,
“osVersion” : {
“train” : “macOS 13.2.1”,
“build” : “22D68”,
“releaseType” : “User”
},
“captureTime” : “2023-08-25 18:58:36.9092 +0200”,
“incident” : “E0E615ED-69A2-48EB-9E0F-E7032F2EA054”,
“pid” : 4378,
“translated” : true,
“cpuType” : “X86-64”,
“roots_installed” : 0,
“bug_type” : “309”,
“procLaunch” : “2023-08-25 18:58:20.4001 +0200”,
“procStartAbsTime” : 280438041733,
“procExitAbsTime” : 280833807514,
“procName” : “Rhinoceros”,
“procPath” : “/Applications/Rhino 7.app/Contents/MacOS/Rhinoceros”,
“bundleInfo” : {“CFBundleShortVersionString”:“7.32”,“CFBundleVersion”:“7.32.23221.10242”,“CFBundleIdentifier”:“com.mcneel.rhinoceros.7”},
“storeInfo” : {“deviceIdentifierForVendor”:“32D361E1-E903-50A6-978F-49D1B53C3496”,“thirdParty”:true},
“parentProc” : “launchd”,
“parentPid” : 1,
“coalitionName” : “com.mcneel.rhinoceros.7”,
“crashReporterKey” : “81A14329-42E6-1CCB-FC0A-ACC0B428A0B0”,
“throttleTimeout” : 2147483647,
“wakeTime” : 2184,
“sleepWakeUUID” : “C735F447-4DE2-413A-BCE9-0FCA9036D8A6”,
“sip” : “enabled”,
“exception” : {“codes”:“0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000000”,“rawCodes”:[0,0],“type”:“EXC_CRASH”,“signal”:“SIGBUS”},
“termination” : {“flags”:0,“code”:10,“namespace”:“SIGNAL”,“indicator”:“Bus error: 10”,“byProc”:“Rhinoceros”,“byPid”:4378},
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Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 5:05pm

pt.2:

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Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 5:06pm

Pt. 3:

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Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 5:08pm

Pt. 4:

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Chloe · 25 Agosto 2023, 5:08pm

Pt.5 (ultima):

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Timestamp Thread Type Activity PID TTL

lucio_zadra · 26 Agosto 2023, 7:47am

Tanta roba… comunque, da un’analisi veloce, credo che sia quel plugin DataSmith che rompe le scatole…
Non riesci a ricordare se i problemi sono nati dopo l’installazione di questo plugin?
Se fossi su windows cercherei un punto di ripristino precedente all’installazione di datasmith così da verificare se ha generato lui l’errore (il problema è che i punti di ripristino disinstallano tutto quello che è stato installato successivamente… quindi non so quanti programmi dovrai reinstallare).
Comunque la certezza del problema la può diagnosticare solo mcneel dato che hanno gli strumenti per analizzare i messaggi di errore.

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